110172-a-conversation-what-is-hardcore-really-page-2
Page 1, Page 2 Content Based on the content of this thread, all we can deduce is many people are ignorant to what hardcore actually means. Argumentum ad numerum (the argument that because many people think something it must be true) is a logical fallacy. If 1 million people think the color blue is subjective that doesn't make them correct. I 100% agree that people have and are certainly entitled to an opinion on what they consider challenging or enjoyable in a game. However if our lives depended on describing a hardcore MMO player, this would be what everyone would describe. | |} ---- ---- You forgot "n00b" and "sux0rz"... those two seem rather popular as well. :D So in summary... pretty much... "it's not the size of the prize, it's the action of the fraction"? :lol:-{TeeHee!} Indeed & Agreed... it's the typical lingo-twist to make buzzwords out of standard defined words by mutating the actual dictionary-definitions: B) (it's about time-investment, dedication, drive, etc... of the PERSON -- perfect example, Raptr and Xfire's ranking in a game of "hardcore"... ticks to that point (just before Elite) when enough hours played are racked up, it has no way of analyzing how a person plays, what actions they do, or even where in the game they're at or what they're even doing in said game.) EDIT: After reading some other posts, this isn't to associate TIME with GRIND. When I say time-investment, I refer to how much time is played in general. For instance... someone who plays hardcore might play marathon-style for 6-8+ hours at a time, while a casual player, might only play for 2-3 hours at a time (even by choice, not in a condescending fashion). Hardcore could also bring into picture those that take the extra time to look up guides or how-to's... like for example, when I used to play Anarchy Online many moons ago, I might look up references for where unique items dropped, how and where to find/make the leveling-gear, and where the hidden "easter-egg" items in the game were. Hardcore doesn't have to mean doing the same thing over and over and over again expecting different results... that's GRIND and/or INSANITY. In my younger days, "hardcore" may have been those that managed to take the time to be able to flip Pacman, and keep flipping it (myself included *tips hat*)... but wasn't, for instance, the person that kept dying on the second or third board and kept going at it again and again and again to have the same results -- cuing up the cliche, "practice makes perfect". :D (Since after all... in an arcade, initials aren't left by those that only last a few minutes... initials are left by those with the highest-score, due to lasting/playing the longest.) Side-note: Even easy things, can be done in "hardcore" fashion... like back in college, the old term of "hardcore studying/cramming" (drawn-out/relentless). | |} ---- regarding Raptr, I need 200 more hours to be the #1 player for Raptr users, does that make me "hardcore"? no. it means I play a lot. I am not hardcore but I look up guides, I check to see the best way to play, I check out the best gear I can get for how I play and how to get it. to be honest. this whole "hardcore" vs "casual" *cupcake* is just that. a smelly, steaming load of horse*cupcake* some "casual" players are probably better players than the people claiming to be "hardcore" its a very old "carebear" type designation which has little basis in reality and more basis in elite tards trying to feel better about themselves. I know many people with little time to play that know their class better than some of the people trying to say they are "hardcore" and the class sucks. truth is this whole discussion is about people that have nothing but time and need to have an ego based on an online game calling down people who probably play better than them but cant spend every waking minute playing it. its old, its semantics and pretty much useless all around. care more about teh game and less about how someone else plays it. because right now... thats whats in danger, the game, not that someone plays differently than you do. jeez, get some perspective already. | |} ---- Or the alternative interpretation... is that you in fact are Hardcore Kestriel :3 | |} ---- You kind of missed the point, since HARDCORE is actually a RANK on Raptr (as I stated in the very post you QUOTED)... and before reaching HARDCORE, it even says, "play for x many more hours to become HARDCORE". *facepalm* :P What you said kind of hit the "time-investment" right on the head, indeed. :) If anything, I tend to take a more casual approach to games, but tend to play with a bit more of a "hardcore investment/style"... as stated when I pointed out looking up guides and how-to's to Anarchy Online and such (extra time-investment, going the distance, dedicated enough to research the game further). :huh: Btw, I couldn't agree more with the ego bit, hit the nail right on the head... it is a bit sad that people live their glory through games. EDIT: Here's some proof about Raptr... because we all just KNOW Playstation Home is ball-busting difficult right (obvious sarcasm goes here)? :lol: | |} ---- just saying the whole "what is hardcore what is casual" discussion is an exercise in pointlessness. maybe 10 years ago it had a point. these days, not so much since many "hardcore" players are really hardcore about how much they can get with little effort. I mostly just quoted your post because it had the whole Raptr thing, which is only time invested, and not meaning YOU, but most of those people could have been "afk" levelling, which is about as hardcore and my cats sleeping all day | |} ---- Or there is the fact that many people really don't want to admit.... In reality, Hardcore vs Casual is really a difference in TIME INVESTED. I actually (*cringe*) agree strongly with Zombie, and so does the Oxford English Dictionary. | |} ---- Oh indeed... and agreed. I'm honestly tired of hearing, "we be cooler because we'z hardcore yo, and you's all stink because yer filthy casualz, we iz l33t, you iz n00b/l4m3". Hardcore is a poor horse that's been beaten to death so badly it comes back as one of the Mighty Horses of the Apocalypse simply to get its revenge... it's been beaten to death and beyond. At least in my younger gaming days many moons ago, there wasn't that much of a distinction... but in the 90s and such, there was even a call for "hardcore", like Quake ladders, and all the hype of "being number 1, booyah". And yeah, AFK-leveling isn't difficult... but it's having the player's character invest more time than somebody that only hops on for a couple hours manually. Not awarding botters either, can't stand 'em... but to be dedicated enough to try and have your character never stop and just keep going and going... is in itself, its own form of "hardcore". I mean seriously, put yourself into the character's position... like from the perspective of the character in the game... imagine grinding and killing stuff, etc for 24 hours straight... that's pretty darn hardcore if you ask me, lol. :D Again, and indeed, the argument is pointless, tedious, even mind-numbing... however, what does somebody do when there's an argument or disagreement? (At least what used to be done.) They're supposed to look it up and go by the facts, either by definition or by factual-reference in an encyclopedia -- in the case of things that happened in history, etc... even dictionary-definition, the definition they've had for ages, kind of settles it... as I posted above. B) The way "hardcore" is being made into anything more than a sales gimmick, like some sort of self-identification... is kind of like when "stupid" became a good thing and a compliment... "yo dawg, that so tight it's stupid!" or "damn you just getting stupid on this, you rock my brotha!"... kind of cheesy actually, lol. :P EDIT: Time is a constant that's unavoidable... unless perhaps your name is Marty McFly or Emmett Brown (or maybe even Doctor Who), but even then... | |} ---- ---- Wise words. Some people have trouble with the MMO portion of MMORPG and don't realize how much it improves the experience. Wildstar is exponentially more fun with friends than as a traditional single player grinder. | |} ---- Ironically, the single-player tends to come from what you just said about many guilds, to which I wholeheartedly agree. A seasoned MMO player learns that a random-guild (even if taking time to get to know them), or PuG/random-teaming is a GRAB-BAG of miscellany at best... never know what sort of crazy comes with the package. Sometimes it's drama, often times it's differing views, other times it's guild-ninjas that clear out the guild-banks and take off, and sometimes it's the whole hardcore/casual head-butt... like the guild calls for dedicated time-scheduled practices and you want to play casual or you want to be more serious and the guild overall is casual, etc. :D (Also in PuGs... never know when someone's going to ninja-loot, or when you might get kicked from a run right near the end, just so they can bring a friend in for the win and the loot, etc...) I tend to play MMOs a bit more single-player because of "the grab-bag effect"... usually co-op with the missus, and occasionally we team up with others (usually if there's no other choice/option), and once in awhile we've joined a guild here and there... but to date, every guild we've joined has had some issue/drama/headache someplace. Even guilds we've started eventually have their issues when enough of a clashing perspective come together, so on, and so forth. :unsure: It's kind of like the whole argument of hardcore/casual... not all people play exactly alike, or are looking for the same exact things out of a game I guess. B) Some people enjoy playing solo more and appreciate MMOs for the large-world, community feels. I mean, seriously, evolving/growing towns/landscapes with a lot of running around real-life players is worlds more fun (at least usually -- the ghost-town nature of Wildstar seems to be killing that buzz for many, lol -- maybe Carbine needs to run some of their own server-side bot-players to run around and look busy... the NPCs doing this in town, are too distinguishable by nameplate coloring, etc) than a single-player game with several towns full of robotic-NPCs that walk around slowly and don't really pass off as "realistic". | |} ---- ---- ---- This is me of late. I am guild-less and proud of it yet I still devote a decent amount of time to W* in which I may even stack up enough time to be able to be labeled a Hardcore player depending on the definition which is still eluding my fellow forum hounds, even after many a conversations as to just what the hell is a hardcore player. All that bloodbath and logic leaf needs to come from some where right, no need to thank me, just don't 'cupcake' on me next time I cross your path in the Crimson Badlands doing my dailies solo. I had a guild, a fat load of good they were, always off focusing on the 'better' and longer live guild member to worry about a little low life worker like me. You forum hounds are indeed having a classic debate on the topic of HC vs C and in doing so have still failed to hit an answer on the head. One says skill and time yet another will point out that time does not always lead to skill and that skill is not directly related to time. One could add that skill + time + crappy gear would lead to a different outcome than skill + time + BiS. So is the def of HC now BiS + time + skill, I think not as player X could have low time invested, good skill and have player Y craft BiS for player X. In the end if this game was created for hardcore players isn't that a major worry considering that the people whom play W* and developed W* cannot actually define Hardcore to a satisfactory consensus. I would add my support behind the idea, that of the OP that a smaller group experience could be classed closer to an acceptable definition of a Hardcore content based upon the fact that a mistake/death in a small group is more noticeable and thus more unwanted leading to the argument that in a larger group, skill is of less important and one could be carried easier. So at the extremes of the debate you have a player in a 40 man raid that can have low skill, low time invested and BiS gear who in reality is a worse player than a solo player whom can take on the Spider queen solo in the CB. I am 101% behind adding content that is more accessible to solo people like me or even adding a lower threshold of player number requirements for raids and X content. To all those whom have helped me in the CB, cheers!!! I may one day have a guild again, until then the fight for freedom goes on. | |} ---- You're absolutely correct. I apologize for being so ignorant. Thank you for calling me out. I appreciate it. | |} ---- I can`t believe I inspired this semi-coherent ramble. I feel all warm and fuzzy inside and must quote it in full to commemorate it! Seriously though, you have accepted a fake debate in my opinion. Hardcore obviously means something with a hard core. So unless you`re actually a cricket ball or the planet Mercury or something, you`re not hardcore. Of course time spent matters in MMORPGs, because they`re so big and are supposed to have enormous depth of game play. And there`s no way around that. Trying to prevent this will stop your game from being an MMORPG. And it`s the same with most human activities by the way. Wanna become a world class violin player? Play loads and loads of violin! What people mean when they say hardcore has always been that someone plays a lot. But you can play a lot as a bad player and still be hardcore and vice versa. Although tha chances of becoming good if you`re bad are probably a lot better if you are hardcore. You need to turn this over in your head until you see that what truly matters in video games is the reward structure used. If all you`re rewarding is reflexes or a clean UI, then what is this huge game-world all about? Just make a big arena already (Hey, Darkfall is out! Who knew?), and drop the PVP autists inside. Much cheaper and we can have them all safely sequestered from the rest of us! Anyway, here is my off-the-top-of-my-head list of things video games can reward: 1: Reflexes: 2: A good interface: 3: A good internet connection: 4: Spatial awareness: 5: Patience: 6: Curiosity: 7: Teamwork: 8: Tactical ability: 9: Planning: 10: Organization: 11: Social ability: 12: Leadership: 13: Loyalty: 14: Persistence: 15: Helpfulness: Some of this is almost exclusive to traditional MMORPGs. But all of them are, or should be, useful to an MMORPG player. And even if they are MMO specific, these are skills you certainly benefit from having in real life, which is what an MMORPG tries to simulate. Therefore: unless such a game rewards, or tries to reward, all these abilities and the personalities that go with them, it is not really an MMORPG. When elitists talk about "skill" in MMORPGs they are almost exclusively talking about points 1, 2 and 3 on my list, as if nothing else matters at all. In my opinion people like that should not be playing MMORPGs at all, and they`re the ones who are making these games so hostile to noobs. Try to consider when the last time was you were helpful to someone in a video game, or the last time you actually planned anything, short of following quest arrows. My point with this is that nothing in gaming tests all of these things more than self organized, MMORPG PVE raids. Soloing a mob in an MMORPG tests the first three at best. You tell me which should be the most rewarding. And if you answer that they should be equally rewarding, then I can only say that you don`t understand the genre at all. It`s like me getting into CoD MP and demanding more involved dialogue or something. (SATIRE ALERT!) I`m slow and have zero capacity for multitasking so I demand that this game be changed to reward only patience and curiosity! | |} ---- ---- I agree with your sentiment; but I disagree with this part: While W* is focused on the Hardcore content; there is TONS for casual players (like myself) to run for a new game; and there will be more down the line. The best housing system in any MMO? Check scaling shiphands and expeditions? Check Unique adventures? Check Awesome lore and completion? Check Cool and beautiful places to explore? Check Hoverboards? Check broad costume system? Check The list goes on.. So while you're totally right about the focus on hardcore content; there is tons for us casual gamers as well. | |} ---- 1) this will probably be my last post because it's progressed so fast like 5 pages went by til i was able to check back up on it hehe. I didnt address the 'what is hardcore' portion because typically when that kind of question is asked you get a different person posting up their own definition and usually from there it turns into bickering over whos definition is more fitting. 2) I was actually hoping that *you* would come up with some actual examples rather then what you gave me with a "it's easy". The point of me asking was to see if you could come up with enough boss encounters to fill up several wildstar expacs that not only are unique but also exciting. You can even cheat if you want to and use the fights that WoW had and tone them down to a 3man version while keeping the existing mechanics. And of course you would have to do it for the instances back in their original form not the way they are now where 3 level 60s in heirlooms can solo molten core. I could probably pick a few fights out of a hat that affected range and healers and say ok how would you handle that? any fight where a ranged or healer would have to run away and stop healing meant that someone else would have to pick up healing. If a hybrid dps/healer had to pick up the slack that means you would also have to tune down damage just a hair. Lets say UBRS Drakkasith...boss, two adds and a conflag which is cast by Drakk that would affect random people. Our strat back in the day was to have a hunter kite Drakk to the beast room while mt and ot each grab an add which gets burned down one by one. When they are dead and Drakk is tanked he puts out a random Conflag that confuses the target for several seconds. How would you do a fight like that for 3 people without changed any of the original strats? the boss still has to be kited away, the two adds still need to be killed before the boss gets back and the conflag still needs to be handled. What happens when the healer gets conflag? there is nobody else to take up the slack. You could have a hybrid dps/healer to back up your primary healer but now you've just excluded dps warriors, dps engineers, and dps stalkers for this encounter. You could say that all incoming raid damage stops while someone is conflag stunned but now you've just neutered the fight. See what i mean? how it isnt so easy? If Wildstar goes on to become a successful MMO that runs for 10 years, you need to be able to do content patches and expacs with 10 years worth of dungeons and raids. So again, how would you design content for that length of time that doesnt make players say "wow this fight sure feels a lot like the last one". Remember that as a dev you have to plan out for the future. You cant just design one raid at a time. Thats why a 10/20/25/40 man group ensures that you are never stuck or that you are never out of ideas. It gives them more freedom to design an encounter rather. If you break down any WoW fight all they are really are combinations of several mechanics put together. WoW devs probably have a dartboard where one part says tank swap, one part says someone has to run, another part that says someone is possessed, and another part of the board that says add rush. Then they just take 3 darts and throw it at the dartboard to figure out how their next encounter will be like. | |} ---- ---- ----